He prosecuted George Floyd’s killer — and he’s still searching for answers

Some people in the police ranks say these reforms make it harder for them to do their jobs. Do you agree with that?

I think it is harder to do your job. But the problem is not the community protesting or policymakers legislating. The problem is their colleagues who violate people’s rights. So I imagine, yes, it is hard if your colleague shoots somebody or beats them without any legitimate legal basis for that. It might be harder to get a statement from witnesses.

But police will also be the beneficiaries [of reform]. It will create an environment where officers who want to protect and serve can do so without a colleague next to them who’s burned up all the goodwill the police department has by their unconstitutional actions.

Given George Floyd’s murder happened in Minnesota, do you think it exposed that the country’s racial divide isn’t just in the South?

There’s no doubt that Black people are 13 percent of the population but are dramatically overrepresented in police deaths and also in other parts of the criminal justice system. The racial story around Floyd, though, is a little bit more interesting than that. The other officers were multiracial and so were bystanders, including two white teenagers and a 9-year-old Black child who videotaped it. And a white woman firefighter tried to save George Floyd. It was a multiracial group that tried to stop [the murder], and when you look at the protests, those groups were multiracial too.

So it is true we have a racial bias in policing. There’s no doubt about it. Statistics prove it over and over and over again. But it’s not true that the people who are complaining about it are of one group. And the Tyre Nichols case shows there is police brutality by Black cops. We always want a simple answer, but the answers aren’t that simple.

Here’s what’s simple: If you want to stop police brutality, you must prosecute criminal conduct, whether the person’s wearing a badge or not. You’ve also got to fire people who violate the norms of the department. Derek Chauvin had 18 violations before he even met George Floyd.

Why did you think it was important to write a book?

I have been dealing with police accountability issues even before I was attorney general or serving in Congress. I helped to organize and led a task force to reduce deadly force encounters, even before George Floyd was killed. I thought it could be the kind of book to help police departments reduce these incidents and do something before a tragedy happens. Part of the book is personal, too. I grew up and remember the 1967 Detroit riot. I talk about a 1998 case just a block from where George Floyd was killed. The problem is everywhere.

What kind of reforms would change the culture of policing?

We have a problem with impunity, which means, “I get to do what I want and nobody’s ever gonna say anything.” So that’s a cultural shift to ask ourselves when we see criminal conduct, “Will it be prosecuted?” It’s got to be if you want to change the culture.

Maybe you didn’t kill someone but you smacked them in the mouth because you’re just in the mood to do so. If your sergeant finds out, they should be written up. And the officer who tells on you for doing that should be rewarded not punished. The officer should be able to say, “I saw that and it’s a violation of departmental rules and I’m telling the sergeant.” The sergeant should be able to say this is a safe place to report misconduct by your colleagues.

If you really want to make a meaningful dent in police brutality issues and police misconduct, you must start with prosecuting criminal conduct. And then you have to use administrative measures like discharge and firing for wrongful conduct.

In Camden, N.J., the police department runs you through simulations whether you’re accused of any wrongdoing or not. They’ll say, “Hey, what did you do here? Were you looking at all the angles? Is there a way to deescalate the situation? Was time and distance on your side? Can you do something so everybody lives?”